How will Bush be remembered ?

[zman]

In your opinion
How will you talk about him

Greatest of all time or worst ??

and Why ??

[Josh]

Worst because he's ugly.

[Indetrucks]

hmmm.. too early to tell. He's a terrible speaker that's for sure, but I think he meant well.. it just didn't go as planned.

But I honestly think going over there was a waste of time and money. Those people cannot be governed or controlled. Once we pull out I give em a year or two until it goes back to chaos. Fortify our borders and let them destroy themselves. We need to worry about ourselves now, a lot of people have lost confidence in our own country, we need to gain that back.

Just keep spy's watching em makin sure they don't have any WMD's. After that shoe throwing incident it's obvy they want nothing to do with outside help.
Let them implode.

[Markbone]

hmmm.. too early to tell. He's a terrible speaker that's for sure, but I think he meant well.. it just didn't go as planned.

But I honestly think going over there was a waste of time and money. Those people cannot be governed or controlled. Once we pull out I give em a year or two until it goes back to chaos. Fortify our borders and let them destroy themselves. We need to worry about ourselves now, a lot of people have lost confidence in our own country, we need to gain that back.

Just keep spy's watching em makin sure they don't have any WMD's. After that shoe throwing incident it's obvy they want nothing to do with outside help.
Let them implode.


:werd

Bush will be remembered as the 'fuck up' prez, though we shouldnt place the blame solely on him. more on his administration and the politicians in place that swayed the herds minds. fuck if anything we should be more upset with the general population that elected him (2x wtf...) and for allowing him and his admin to actually stay.

[Thundercat]

worst. Have you ever seen Fahrenheit 911? He spent more time on vacation then he did on our nation's issues, he sat for a full 7 minutes in a classroom full of kids AFTER he heard the towers were attacked and only then did he finally get up and leave. I'm sorry, but F*** PR when people are dying? Ya think?

On top of that, he helped Bin Laden's family leave the country after the towers had been attacked, even after they shut the airspace down.

THEN, the fooker has the nerve to send all of our troops into the wrong country to fight. The fight was in Afghanistan, NOT Iraq. And now some of these kids have been back there 3 or 4 times!!!!!! Facking ridiculous. I fully support our troops, but I don't support what we used them for. Such needless death. I'm sorry, but how do you win a battle where you're chasing rats through random neighborhoods??? Um, how is that effective? What kind of war strategy is that? WTF!!!!

I would say by far, he was the worst president of all time. That's just my opinion. By the state of our economy, our markets and by the looks of things over seas, it's obvious. Even the second World War wasn't dragged out this long. I hate that mofo.

Obama has his work cut out for him fixing the mess that BUSH left behind.

[CiBeR]

You can't tell, too early as mentioned earlier. The decisions that are made by presidents some times takes years to really "pan" out.

[Priapism]

His legacy will be forever linked to the conflict in Iraq. How history views that is how he will be viewed. He did nothing of consequence on the domestic stage.

[westcork]

Here is a list of 100 mistakes from his first administration:
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2004/05/b64326.html

[triplestack3]

In your opinion
How will you talk about him



Legendary fail

http://www.shipmentoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/bushdoorfail.jpg

[Kurosaki]

If you can dodge a shoe, you can dodge a ball. Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

[HoolieB]

You can't tell, too early as mentioned earlier. The decisions that are made by presidents some times takes years to really "pan" out.

I agree with that statement.

But we don't need the calm reflection of time before declaring him the dancingest President ever:

YouTube - Raw Video: Bush Tap Dances (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knhErtMjC8k)
YouTube - President Bush Shakin his Groove Thang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqy91GnS-Bg)
YouTube - President Bush dancing in Tiblisi, Georgia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBdehFBZzNo)
YouTube - Raw footage:Bush and his new dance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZnpCzitmUA)

[swazimoto]

He'll be remembered by me much differently than by most. He wasn't treated fairly during his presidency and he won't be treated fairly in history books.

[Indetrucks]

I like

[SatansSquirrel]

I'm hoping he will be remembered for the inept retard that he is. Not his fault, though. At least he's a happy idiot.

[adospeed]

worst. Have you ever seen Fahrenheit 911? He spent more time on vacation then he did on our nation's issues, he sat for a full 7 minutes in a classroom full of kids AFTER he heard the towers were attacked and only then did he finally get up and leave. I'm sorry, but F*** PR when people are dying? Ya think?

On top of that, he helped Bin Laden's family leave the country after the towers had been attacked, even after they shut the airspace down.

THEN, the fooker has the nerve to send all of our troops into the wrong country to fight. The fight was in Afghanistan, NOT Iraq. And now some of these kids have been back there 3 or 4 times!!!!!! Facking ridiculous. I fully support our troops, but I don't support what we used them for. Such needless death. I'm sorry, but how do you win a battle where you're chasing rats through random neighborhoods??? Um, how is that effective? What kind of war strategy is that? WTF!!!!

I would say by far, he was the worst president of all time. That's just my opinion. By the state of our economy, our markets and by the looks of things over seas, it's obvious. Even the second World War wasn't dragged out this long. I hate that mofo.

Obama has his work cut out for him fixing the mess that BUSH left behind.

Earl?? Oh shut up. Another Obama-bot Savior follower. Thats just my opinion.

[adospeed]

History will be kinder than the current sentiment.

I'll say this much. We havent gotten nailed since 9-11.

[zman]

so what ya think Ado ?

[SatansSquirrel]

History will be kinder than the current sentiment.

I'll say this much. We havent gotten nailed since 9-11.

I would suggest that any presumption that the current admninistration has somehow contributed largely to this is overreaching. I would also suggest that the massive and unsustainable spending bleed that has been the current admin's "solution" is not only reactive and shortsighted, but ineffective over the long term at securing our country in any real way.

[swazimoto]

you're right he's just a retard, thread over

[Homeslice]

Earl?? Oh shut up. Another Obama-bot Savior follower. Thats just my opinion.

Ah yes..... Everyone who voted for Obama is some kind of autobot who was brainwashed by his messiah status. Everyone who voted for him was so stupid that they believing that he will accomplish everything he says.

In contrast, McCain voters were all intelligent. They were the ONLY ones who actually applied any analytical reasoning behind their vote.

Thanks for clarifying. We're glad you're here to tell us how the world really works.

[adospeed]

I would suggest that any presumption that the current admninistration has somehow contributed largely to this is overreaching. I would also suggest that the massive and unsustainable spending bleed that has been the current admin's "solution" is not only reactive and shortsighted, but ineffective over the long term at securing our country in any real way.

If I was talking about Long Term Sustainabulity, but I wasnt, so you are making a case against something I did not infer.

How is it that one can say he had no contribution on safety when it happen during his administration? But you can falsely apply to him a "solution" to a problem that was building from 2 administrations ago? There was a lead up to the Mortgage mess, and it started with legislation that pushed for loans to high risk borrowers.

Regardless, we cant do squat if we are not first physically safe.

[adospeed]

[QUOTE=Homeslice;25950]Ah yes..... Everyone who voted for Obama is some kind of autobot who was brainwashed by his messiah status. Everyone who voted for him was so stupid that they believing that he will accomplish everything he says.
QUOTE]

Yes. That would be an accurate assesment. Ask me in 4 years and I'll have been affirmed.

[MishMash]

No one is motivated by a guy who cannot orate well, whether they have a good strategy and plan or not. If your Pres sounds like a tard, acts like a tard, and does tard things.....the masses will lose their faith. No offense to tards meant, BTW.

I'll remember him for ducking a shoe, and thats all, because I have been trying with earnest to blank out the last 8 years from my memory.

Republicans (Of which I am registered as one BTW) have had decent candidates come and go, but the one that always seems to go up for the position of president and win the primaries is the last one i'd want...

Makes me lose faith in the party and beliefs....

[adospeed]

So a guy who stumbles without a Telepromter is better? I mean Seriously.

[adospeed]

Makes me lose faith in the party and beliefs....

Stop having that much faith in them, and see them for what they are...YOUR pawns. Makes it easier to digest.

[SatansSquirrel]

I laugh at the all too predictable response of conservatives to those of us who don't subscribe to and swallow their doctrine of fear and doom. I will vote for the leader (regardless of party affiliation - fuck that) whom I think has the best chance of averting chaos and restoring hope - more work can be done with good leadership and a coalesced population than with bullets and divisiveness any day. There are leaders that have made positive advances for humanity and their own populations...Bush is not one of them. Patriotism does not mean sweeping the heinous acts of an inept leader under the rug, nor waving the flag like an idiot when the place is going in the crapper.

To believe that a president has the ability to radically change the course of human events however, is also naive - we are but one piece of a global puzzle, and he is but one person.

It takes courage to have hope, and to act accordingly. Fatalism is a cop out.

[adospeed]

Since when is Conservatism a doctrine of fear and doom? Arent they the ones saying, Hey Government Get the %#% Out and we'll take care of ourselves?

Since when does Conservatism require governing of every aspect of your life from your health, to how much you can put into your retirement IRA, to including how much emissions your car has because of the impending Global Warming?

So tell Satan, who is the Gloom and Doom Party?

And I laugh when they rip one leader and their acts, but yet put so much HOPE in the next one. Do they not learn????

Government IS the problem, and it has never been more apparent than NOW.

[adospeed]

and by the way.....some of those %#%# earned their waterboarding! Chew on that.

[Jeremy]

If you can dodge a shoe, you can dodge a ball. Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

thats how I will remember him

[CiBeR]

http://smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Food/eating-popcorn-03.gif

[Chromodome]

Since when does Conservatism require governing of every aspect of your life from your health, to how much you can put into your retirement IRA, to including how much emissions your car has because of the impending Global Warming?

I'd say once the religious right got firmly entrenched with the current flavor of conservatism, they decided to govern quite a few aspects of people's lives.

[adospeed]

I'd say once the religious right got firmly entrenched with the current flavor of conservatism, they decided to govern quite a few aspects of people's lives.

Name one.

[SatansSquirrel]

Name one.

Abortion.

[adospeed]

Abortion.

And so everyone that is against Abortion is the "Religous Right"? Uh.....no. You dont need a foundation of faith to recognize the inherent wrong in ending a life.

So try again.

[SatansSquirrel]

Government (again, regardless of party - I care NOT to debate *party politics*) has no business governing morality. In fact, its laughable that we would allow these pillars of society to engage in such a waste of tax dollars.

Build roads, keep the country secure, attend to foreign and economic matters as they pertain to benefiting the voters.

Gay marriage would be another issue that government, either federal or local..has no business in.

[SatansSquirrel]

And so everyone that is against Abortion is the "Religous Right"? Uh.....no. You dont need a foundation of faith to recognize the inherent wrong in ending a life.

So try again.

I don't need anyone telling me what I need to recognize, actually. Whether it be religion or government...I was born with my own brain and good parents, thanks very much.

[adospeed]

Government (again, regardless of party - I care NOT to debate *party politics*) has no business governing morality. In fact, its alughable that we would allow these pillars of society to engage in such a waste of tax dollars.

Build roads, keep the country secure, attend to foreign and economic matters as they pertain to benefiting the voters.

INSTITUTIONALIZING Gay marriage would be another issue that government, either federal or local..has no business in.

We agree on 99% of what you posted. I did add the Italics and "Institutionalizing"".

[SatansSquirrel]

We agree on 99% of what you posted.

I thought we would :grouphug

[adospeed]

I don't need anyone telling me what I need to recognize, actually. Whether it be religion or government...I was born with my own brain and good parents, thanks very much.

You put it out there......you are saying the Religous Right are the sole reason for pushing against abortion.

You equate them with too much power.....thats not the Religous Right, thats a large population of the country, with a SEGMENT of that large population being the Religous Right.

[SatansSquirrel]

You put it out there......you are saying the Religous Right are the sole reason for pushing against abortion.

You equate them with too much power.....thats not the Religous Right, thats a large population of the country, with a segment of that being the Religous right.

I think you mixed me up with another poster.

[adospeed]

I think you mixed me up with another poster.

Wehn I said name one......you said Abortion........ Sure the RR have influence and you can identify them, but it is many others Americans who happen to align with them, but are not religous.

[Chromodome]

You put it out there......you are saying the Religous Right are the sole reason for pushing against abortion.

You equate them with too much power.....thats not the Religous Right, thats a large population of the country, with a SEGMENT of that large population being the Religous Right.

Actually I was the one who brought up the religious right, but that was because you said conservatism means "stay out of my personal life". Yet it was largely with the religious influence that the right decided to start legislating "morality" (at least in their view), which runs contrary to true conservatism's view of less government.

[adospeed]

Anyhow..........Enough with the Legislate to Death attitude. That needs to stop in every aspect.

Just yesterday, a Madoff Scandal victim said we need more legislation to protect from that........I was like NO, You need to pay more attention to who you give your money to. :)

[adospeed]

Actually I was the one who brought up the religious right, but that was because you said conservatism means "stay out of my personal life". Yet it was largely with the religious influence that the right decided to start legislating "morality" (at least in their view), which runs contrary to true conservatism's view of less government.


Well thats where I and the RR part ways.......you can't legislate morality. The Prop 8 to me, was more defending the status quo, the historical definition. Hence why a proactive affort to change that is when I stood with the RR.

[swazimoto]

yawn, predictable thread

[Chromodome]

Anyhow..........Enough with the Legislate to Death attitude. That needs to stop in every aspect.

Just yesterday, a Madoff Scandal victim said we need more legislation to protect from that........I was like NO, You need to pay more attention to who you give your money to. :)

100% in agreement with you.

[SatansSquirrel]

Wehn I said name one......you said Abortion........ Sure the RR have influence and you can identify them, but it is many others Americans who happen to align with them, but are not religous.

I was simply agreeing with Marcus in that the RR have large sway over conservative (aka Republican) politics. It has been and continues to be a staple of their campaigns, because (IMHO) they believe that the RR is a key to success in winning votes. I'd like to see the Repubs grow some balls and not feel the need to pander to intolerant sectors of society, but sadly they continue to.

I would also like to see the Repubs grow some balls and actually shrink the government, but that has certainly not happened in the past eight years either.

[zman]

Well Matt post up what ya think ......

[SatansSquirrel]

100% in agreement with you.

Me too - the federal government has become the single largest spending entity in our country. It needs to stop. Too many tax dollars in the pot and no accountability to voters once in office.

[adospeed]

Scary thing is , even shrinking the government is going to be a monumental task at the rate its going....lol.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

I know he's smarter than appears, but... Monkey-faced. With IQ to match.

Jokes aside he's a lobbyist of the Military-Industrial Complex. He "raped" the country without much objection spending trillions on the [largely] bogus war. I don't follow how his immediate family favored though wouldn't you agree he comes out of these 8 years richer, not poorer? Obviously none of them, saviors of the country invested their own money in this "patriotic cause". Rather collected profits, don't you think? People who ultimately put/kept him in the office became billionaires out of millionaires. Wars and revolutions are the quickest means to make fortunes. It's all about money. What can I say. We witnessed a perfectly executed money transfer: the largest in the country's history. But there are many to come from both pro-business and pro-people administrations. And trust me they always find the "noble" cause.

[Josh]

Regardless of who i agree with here, I just think it's great that this can not only be debated on this board but is actually encouraged by the leaders of it.

[adospeed]

haha....Welcome to Sparta Josh!

[MishMash]

I think a reflection of how Bush did can be viewed this way too -

When so many people voted for the "O"ther party, simply because of how badly one party did.

I think McCain never stood a fighting chance, thanks to Bush.

I think a lot of people voted Obama, simply because it was NOT anything having to do with Bush.

Whats that say about our nation?

[Priapism]

Arent they the ones saying, Hey Government Get the %#% Out and we'll take care of ourselves?

WTF? The Republicans are the exact opposite of that. The deficit has grown larger under this administration than it has under every previous one put together. How can you not call that the party of big government?

[Priapism]

And so everyone that is against Abortion is the "Religous Right"? Uh.....no. You dont need a foundation of faith to recognize the inherent wrong in ending a life.

So try again.

The point at which a soul is granted, and thus life is embued, is different in the different faiths. Abortion IS a religious issue, look at the side that wants it banned.

[adospeed]

The point at which a soul is granted, and thus life is embued, is different in the different faiths. Abortion IS a religious issue, look at the side that wants it banned.

Assuming you are right, my point is that you dont have to be a heavily RELIGIOUS person to have a belief that is in alignment with the Religous Right.

[CiBeR]

http://smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Food/eating-popcorn-03.gif

[adospeed]

WTF? The Republicans are the exact opposite of that. The deficit has grown larger under this administration than it has under every previous one put together. How can you not call that the party of big government?

You are correct. It is why so many conservatives are pissed of, because it went against a core principle, less government. Yes it is a Rep problem now, but it is the conservatives within the party which are figthing to reverse it.

[adospeed]

I think a reflection of how Bush did can be viewed this way too -

When so many people voted for the "O"ther party, simply because of how badly one party did.

I think McCain never stood a fighting chance, thanks to Bush.

I think a lot of people voted Obama, simply because it was NOT anything having to do with Bush.

Whats that say about our nation?

I think that is a very accurate commentary Sir Miles.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

You guys are exactly the kind of fools that let Bush's administration get away with this shit. While you're arguing about religion, politics, values, or other moral matters, modern politics are not about moral or religion. It's about money and nothing else. The politicians have perfected the art of taking your money. According to Hollywood criminal thrillers (my only source on the matter) it's a "long con", isn't it? Legalized fraud nothing else.

We're seeing a similar scenario now: the financial crisis that justifies big spending. In 2001 it was terrorist crisis. The politicians are not interested in stability and prosperity (other than their own of course). They need some sort of "crisis". That what makes them justify their purpose of either protector of the country from terrorists or protector of the economy.

I'm not gonna go into any conspiracy theories, but both big "catastrophic" events could be accelerated/manipulated if not completely orchestrated.

[SatansSquirrel]

To those that suggest Obama won on votes "against" McCain or Bush...I wonder how many of these same conservatives still voted for McCain and failed Republicanism.

[adospeed]

Alex, did you vote?

[Priapism]

I think McCain never stood a fighting chance, thanks to Bush.


I think he stood a great chance before he nominated Mrs. Beauty Pageant. What a freaking terrible choice as your first cabinet member.

[SatansSquirrel]

I voted.

[adospeed]

To those that suggest Obama won on votes "against" McCain or Bush...I wonder how many of these same conservatives still voted for McCain and failed Republicanism.

Suggest? C'mon, it was what Obama himself who ran on that theme. He mentioned W more than any idea he had.

[adospeed]

I think he stood a great chance before he nominated Mrs. Beauty Pageant. What a freaking terrible choice as your first cabinet member.

Never stood a chance from the get go. Palin was a sidewhow for those who never believed McCain to begin with.

[SatansSquirrel]

Suggest? C'mon, it was what Obama himself who ran on that theme. He mentioned W more than any idea he had.

Party politics is what it is. Slam the other side, avoid being specific on issues, steer towards the center and don't piss of your contributors. Both sides play the game. Its stupid, but hopefully you can discern enough about character and direction amidst the myriad of media sound bits and fluff.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

Alex, did you vote?
LOL. I knew you were asking me. No I did not as I equally dislike both big parties. I'm somewhat a libertarian (on certain issues), but I never felt like any existing party represents my interests.

Let's see: they both support offshore outsourcing and L-1 visa abuse (illegal white-collar immigration). And they want my money int he form of taxes. And I'm never going to be in the "income bracket" to receive ANY of the government help. My unemployment would never reach half of my wages. My disability is even more pathetic. They're all capped because I make too much. Though I pay like the rest. My children will never qualify for any college help. I pay for my own medical insurance, but if my wife gets pregnant she'd never receive any help from the government like the poor.

See, the pro-business party does nothing for me since 2002 cause the Corporate America started massive white job transfer to India in 2002. So why I wanna be pro-business if business doesn't create more jobs? Pro-people... I'm never going to see a dime of that.

[Homeslice]

yawn, predictable thread

Very.

[Homeslice]

I think he stood a great chance before he nominated Mrs. Beauty Pageant. What a freaking terrible choice as your first cabinet member.

Some people actually believe that she won more votes for McCain than she took away :lmfao

[Homeslice]

Name one.

My right to see a lawyer and get a trial sometime in the, oh, next couple of years, after I'm declared an "enemy combatant" which Bush thinks he's allowed to do to anyone, even US citizens?

My right not to have my emails, Google searches, bank transactions, and cellphone calls sucked up by the NSA, which as a matter of fact they are currently doing right here on US soil?

A message to the neo-cons: How about doing some REAL homeland defense, and protect our borders and ports for once, instead of trying to come up with new ways to spy on our own citizens?

[Priapism]

Some people actually believe that she won more votes for McCain than she took away :lmfao

That may be true, there are so many people that vote purely based on the genitals, skin color, or some other worthless physical characteristic rather than their intellect or qualifications for the job. There are plenty of ":love She's a mom like me!!! :love" voters out there :rolleyes:

[Homeslice]

Careful........Only McCain voters used sound reasoning.

[SatansSquirrel]

Careful........Only McCain voters used sound reasoning.

lol :onfloor

[MojoNoGo]

I'll say this much. We havent gotten nailed since 9-11.



By that logic, I could say that this rock keeps tigers away.



Lisa, I would like to buy your rock.


Ado, I got a couple rocks I'd like to sell to you.

[SatansSquirrel]

I'll say this much. We havent gotten nailed since 9-11.


Lisa: By that logic, I could say that this rock keeps tigers away.

Homer: I would like to buy your rock.


OMG - its true - Simpsons FTW!

[Da Baddest Mofo]

Ado, I got a couple rocks I'd like to sell to you.
:lmfao
Couldn't said better.

We'll get "nailed" again when the situation is right: primarily there's some budget surplus the general population doesn't care about and would easily part with. There's no money in the jar for the military-industrial complex now. Wait until it gets full again.

[swazimoto]

the man can do no right with you people

[Josh]

the man can do no right with you people

"The man" had plenty of opportunities to do right by his people, he chose not to.

[zman]

Hey Matt

I want to read what you have to say on the subject .

[Priapism]

the man can do no right with you people

He's fiscally liberal and socially conservative, I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative--we won't agree on much.

[MishMash]

"The man" had plenty of opportunities to do right by his people, he chose not to.
+ 1 Josh... with the exception of whether he was the chooser, or part of the choosing process with impactful input.

I just feel like he had the opportunity like all Presidents do to be a great leader. He did not turn out to be.

A great leader is one that can accel in the instance of what the world's issues are providing. Sometimes the world can be an extraordinarily difficult place to be a leader in, at that point in time. Sometimes its not as hard....but still hard.

I think when GW got his wish to be President, he could've stepped up better than he did. The 9/11 incident (*conspiracy theorists aside for a moment please) was handled as it was handled by him. Could it have been handled better in the following years? Some say yes. I argue that it can always be challenged.

And the Economy...The hyper-growth experienced in the 90's during Clinton's years could have also been moderately brought back to Earth under careful action, rather than let it fall hard like it has. In that aspect I feel he failed. Rather than let greed drive it higher and higher, a good leader could have moderated it and kept a better handle on it. When your nation's economy drives a lot of subsequent economies worldwide, you need to really be on top of it. Whether by ensuring the top economists have input to your cabinet's decisions, or by making it your #1 priority yourself.

I just felt like he was more of a sit-back President. More REACTIVE than PROACTIVE, and that negatively impacted us for years.

Now, regardless of whose in charge, we as US Citizens need to pull up our own bootstraps, pull our focus towards ourselves and our nation for a change, rebuild and become the strong country we truly were again rather than sit around telling ourselves how great we are.

Bailouts won't do anything for the large US Businesses unless fundamental changes occur. Fire all top management, because they had a chance to work hard and decided not to pay attention, as well as change entire business models to be more integrated with how the world works today.

Simple things like designing cars without all the beauty-controlling bureaucracy that gets slapped into the models and makes them ugly by the time they hit showrooms, etc......(I digressed, sorry).

People need to stop looking for handouts and get empowered and competitive again rather than sit still being fat dumb happy and uninvolved.

Ok, i'm done. I know my statements will get challenged...and honestly, I hope they do. That will tell me whomever challenges them is INTERESTED and CARES. We all need to. Our government wont, and will not without its people caring.

Look out for #1, but work as a team to look out for #1.

Improve as a whole, right?:idunno

Regardless of our next President's personal agenda - If he is able to be a catalyst to empower folks to care again and try to dig in and fix our own problems, I think the next few years have a chance to turn our nation around. The mob needs a leader before perceptions change.

[swazimoto]

Hey Matt

I want to read what you have to say on the subject .

I posted on the first page, before all the pointless back and forth. I voted for him twice, I voted for his "third term (LOL)". I like the guy. He was dealt a hard blow less than a year into his presidency. He made mistakes in dealing with it, and he wasn't able to do what he might've domestically because of it. I think he's among the least disingenuous politicians in my lifetime and I like that. The Bush hatred that has consumed this country for the last 8 years disgusts me. This thread would've been cool before it turned into the same pointless jib jab, but people can't resist opportunities to bash the guy.

[SatansSquirrel]

Ado, I got a couple rocks I'd like to sell to you.

I posted on the first page, before all the pointless back and forth. I voted for him twice, I voted for his "third term (LOL)". I like the guy. He was dealt a hard blow less than a year into his presidency. He made mistakes in dealing with it, and he wasn't able to do what he might've domestically because of it. I think he's among the least disingenuous politicians in my lifetime and I like that. The Bush hatred that has consumed this country for the last 8 years disgusts me. This thread would've been cool before it turned into the same pointless jib jab, but people can't resist opportunities to bash the guy.

95% of the time i don't respond to politics threads becuase it always ends the same way and i really prefer to have intelligent conversation rather than respond to attacks of character. Anyway. its not pointless jib jab IMHO - and "bashing" isn't uncalled for when (again in my humble opinion and supported by my vote) the guy is a complete failure as a leader. I wasn't born yesterday...and I don't say these things lightly. That is all.

[zman]

I posted on the first page, before all the pointless back and forth. I voted for him twice, I voted for his "third term (LOL)". I like the guy. He was dealt a hard blow less than a year into his presidency. He made mistakes in dealing with it, and he wasn't able to do what he might've domestically because of it. I think he's among the least disingenuous politicians in my lifetime and I like that. The Bush hatred that has consumed this country for the last 8 years disgusts me. This thread would've been cool before it turned into the same pointless jib jab, but people can't resist opportunities to bash the guy.


Cool man
i didnt see ya post , just making sure that everyone gets heard :thumb

I know that at this moment there are alot of people that are going to get caught up in the Bush hatred Ban wagon
but really we wont see how everything pans out till a few years from now , i was interested in seeing How his terms are going to be seen in the History books.

[Vtec44]

He will be forever remember for his quick reaction.

[adospeed]

Ado, I got a couple rocks I'd like to sell to you.

Is that the best you can come up with? :dunno

Child.....

[adospeed]

My right to see a lawyer and get a trial sometime in the, oh, next couple of years, after I'm declared an "enemy combatant" which Bush thinks he's allowed to do to anyone, even US citizens?

My right not to have my emails, Google searches, bank transactions, and cellphone calls sucked up by the NSA, which as a matter of fact they are currently doing right here on US soil?

A message to the neo-cons: How about doing some REAL homeland defense, and protect our borders and ports for once, instead of trying to come up with new ways to spy on our own citizens?

And please.....please........please.........do your research before you start trying to speak on the NSA.........puhlease..............

Thank you Keith Olbermann.

[adospeed]

Careful........Only McCain voters used sound reasoning.

Most intelligent thing youve said thus far. :yippy

[adospeed]

LOL. I knew you were asking me. No I did not as I equally dislike both big parties. I'm somewhat a libertarian (on certain issues), but I never felt like any existing party represents my interests.

Let's see: they both support offshore outsourcing and L-1 visa abuse (illegal white-collar immigration). And they want my money int he form of taxes. And I'm never going to be in the "income bracket" to receive ANY of the government help. My unemployment would never reach half of my wages. My disability is even more pathetic. They're all capped because I make too much. Though I pay like the rest. My children will never qualify for any college help. I pay for my own medical insurance, but if my wife gets pregnant she'd never receive any help from the government like the poor.

See, the pro-business party does nothing for me since 2002 cause the Corporate America started massive white job transfer to India in 2002. So why I wanna be pro-business if business doesn't create more jobs? Pro-people... I'm never going to see a dime of that.

If you make so much money, then quit your bitchin.......governement help and disability was NOT INTENDED to provide for EVERYONE, this aint %#@% Europe!!....... geez dude, that attitude is what is WRONG with people these day.

You should be grateful you have enough money to make it hurt when you DO have to pay for things.

[adospeed]

I posted on the first page, before all the pointless back and forth. I voted for him twice, I voted for his "third term (LOL)". I like the guy. He was dealt a hard blow less than a year into his presidency. He made mistakes in dealing with it, and he wasn't able to do what he might've domestically because of it. I think he's among the least disingenuous politicians in my lifetime and I like that. The Bush hatred that has consumed this country for the last 8 years disgusts me. This thread would've been cool before it turned into the same pointless jib jab, but people can't resist opportunities to bash the guy.

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my feelings.

[MojoNoGo]

Is that the best you can come up with? :dunno

Child.....


Hmm...

I found the reference to be rather germane ...and humorous. Especially for a child. :fawkdance

But, maybe I should elaborate. My point was that you cannot attribute our relative safety here in the United States to our presence in Afghanistan or Iraq with ANY certainty. I’m sure that there are a multitude of reasons that we have not been attacked, many of which are beyond your or my understanding. And, to simply credit our good fortune to Bush is a bit …misguided?

As a matter of fact, one could present the argument that MORE Americans have died as a result of these actions than if we had simply stayed at home and not gone on some quixotic rampage. (Where's the windmill-tilting smiley?)

But, what do I know? :dunno

I’ll just go back to playing with my blocks.

[Homeslice]

And please.....please........please.........do your research before you start trying to speak on the NSA.........puhlease..............


Maybe take your own advice:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120511973377523845.html

[adospeed]

I’ll just go back to playing with my blocks.

Yeah, it's probably best you do.

[badmonkey]

he wasn't able to do what he might've domestically because of it.

as far as i'm concerned 9/11 gave GWB carte blanche to do whatever the F he wanted to do. The way that both houses and both parties in congress, in spite of their better judgement, stood in line to sign the patriot act, he could've made July 4 National Clown Day instead of independence day and he would've gotten a bill out of committee, on the house floor, voted on and passed in 3 days.

[adospeed]

Maybe take your own advice:

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120511973377523845.html


Maybe you should READ IT.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

He will be forever remember for his quick reaction.
For an old guy, yes. Though shoes don't fly that fast.

What I don't understand is people's expectations of the president. They call him a "leader" (e.g. "could have been a better leader"). We follow the rules of the same stupid game: the leader leads "his people", "good king" or "bad", whatever. We believe it's the same game, but it's changed decades ago. There are no kings or leaders. There are shadow (or not so shadow) forces who put those leaders in the office by financing them (and I'm not talking about just the presidential campaign).

Whether the president has his beliefs or not... LOL, what beliefs? He's a politician like the rest of them. Anyway, assuming there's a "good king" in the office once in a while with moral standards, beliefs, etc. at the end of the day he answers to those who support him monetarily. Forget about voting. Did you contribute anything to the Republican or Democratic campaign? That's what I call real voting.

You can say it's democracy and real votes of real people count. Look at the last 8 years. Bush was hugely unpopular, yet it didn't stop his administration from doing what they were doing (stuffing their pockets for the most part). Did public opinion matter? Any politician's biggest risk is not being re-elected, though IMO they can benefit enough (monetarily) in 4 years. Sure, it's always better to have another 4.

Going back to that by statistics you don't need to satisfy the entire population. You should just avoid pissing off one critical part of electorate. Just enough to keep your afloat. It's the poor and the elderly. Together those two groups make the necessary 40%. Maybe the controlling package is even less than that. Politicians are good at statistics. My accountant explained it to me years ago. Why he asked the tax suddenly rises from 15% to 28%? Cause only people in the 15% bracket are important as electorate making up under 40% of the population. So as long as no one threatens the poor and elderly government support they're not going to be a threat to the current political system.

Besides these two social groups tend to be very convincible and easily manipulated by the media. That eliminates the last unknown/unpredictable piece of the political puzzle: people's opinion. You can control it through the media applying the same force: money.

[adospeed]

Hows the Satellite TV working out? :)

[Homeslice]

Maybe you should READ IT.

Maybe I did, did you? Since you posted only 2 minutes after I did, I really doubt it.

Did you notice the part where even some NSA employees were concerned about the potential for abuse?

You know, you're an OK guy in person, but on the boards you come across extremely arrogant.

[westcork]

The Bush hatred that has consumed this country for the last 8 years disgusts me.
Bush had a very high approval rating for several years. Bush hatred has only been popular for the last 4 years. He squandered his popularity through continually making unpopular decisions. And for that, he is a fool.

[swazimoto]

as far as i'm concerned 9/11 gave GWB carte blanche to do whatever the F he wanted to do. The way that both houses and both parties in congress, in spite of their better judgement, stood in line to sign the patriot act, he could've made July 4 National Clown Day instead of independence day and he would've gotten a bill out of committee, on the house floor, voted on and passed in 3 days.

yep Bush is an evil man, he took office with the intention of doing lots of bad things and 9/11 was fabricated to make it possible :shakehead

[Da Baddest Mofo]

Hows the Satellite TV working out? :)
Enjoying free HBO, Showtime, and Starz. I have local channels for free now but still don't watch the local news. Still don't watch other news channels. That should tell you a little about my political beliefs.

[Homeslice]

yep Bush is an evil man, he took office with the intention of doing lots of bad things and 9/11 was fabricated to make it possible :shakehead

yeah badmonkey really said that :shakehead

[SatansSquirrel]

For an old guy, yes. Though shoes don't fly that fast.

What I don't understand is people's expectations of the president. They call him a "leader" (e.g. "could have been a better leader"). We follow the rules of the same stupid game: the leader leads "his people", "good king" or "bad", whatever. We believe it's the same game, but it's changed decades ago. There are no kings or leaders. There are shadow (or not so shadow) forces who put those leaders in the office by financing them (and I'm not talking about just the presidential campaign).

Whether the president has his beliefs or not... LOL, what beliefs? He's a politician like the rest of them. Anyway, assuming there's a "good king" in the office once in a while with moral standards, beliefs, etc. at the end of the day he answers to those who supports him monetarily. Forget about voting. Did you contribute anything to the republican or democratic campaign? That's what I call real voting.

You can say it's democracy and real votes of real people count. Look at the last 8 years. Bush was hugely unpopular, yet it didn't stop his administration from doing what they were doing (stuffing their pockets for the most part). Did public opinion matter? Any politician's biggest risk is not being re-elected, though IMO they can benefit enough (monetarily) in 4 years. Sure, it's always better to have another 4.

Going back to that by statistics you don't need to satisfy the entire population. You should just avoid pissing off one critical part of electorate. Just enough to keep your afloat. It's the poor and the elderly. Together those two groups make the necessary 40%. Maybe the controlling package is even less than that. Politicians are good at statistics. My accountant explained it to me years ago. Why he asked the tax suddenly rises from 15% to 28%? Cause only people in the 15% bracket are important as electorate making up under 40% of the population. So as long as no one threatens the poor and elderly government support they're not going to be a threat to the current political system.

Besides these two social groups tend to be very convincible and easily manipulated by the media. That eliminates the last unknown/unpredictable piece of the political puzzle: people's opinion. You can control it through the media applying the same force: money.

You have very nicely summarized everything wrong with our government and how...when allowed to run amok, it can be a disaster.

Accountability to voters: You suggest that politicians are accountable not to voters but to campaign contributors. True - couldn't agree more. Bush's supporters were largely among the mil-industrial sector so its no wonder that he launched a ghost-hunt in Iraq and continued a failed policy despite widespread unpopularity.

Motivation of the elderly and financially empowered: Again, true...which is why a "politics of fear" campaign was so successful in his reelection and why the sheeple refused to do anything despite their concerns of how things were being run.

Now that we all know this and understand it, perhaps its time to take back our government?

[adospeed]

Maybe I did, did you? Since you posted only 2 minutes after I did, I really doubt it.

Did you notice the part where even some NSA employees were concerned about the potential for abuse?

You know, you're an OK guy in person, but on the boards you come across extremely arrogant.

Dude, thats cause I read that article when it FIRST came out.

Thats not arrogance, thats a strong difference of opinion.

You come across as naive, I don't hold it against you.

[adospeed]

Enjoying free HBO, Showtime, and Starz. I have local channels for free now but still don't watch the local news. Still don't watch other news channels. That should tell you a little about my political beliefs.

LOL......glad its working out.

[HoolieB]

And no one else will remember him for the dancing? Sheesh, you guys are all way out of touch...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/3274186/George-W-Bush-in-pictures.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01016/bush-african-danci_1016564i.jpg

[adospeed]

Next four years of Obama will bore me. I have no interest in anthing he's offered up. A fellow board member directed me to an article by Charles Krauthammer.

In a nutshell, Obama will have the mandate, the congress, and the money to do what he wants.

But I have a feeling, that like most things government touches (regardless of party), the cost to attempt it will be staggering, and an unmitigated disaster.

[Homeslice]

Dude, thats cause I read that article when it FIRST came out.
.

Then instead of saying "read it", in your customary one-liner, dismissive style, please explain what part of the article supports your opinion.

[adospeed]

And no one else will remember him for the dancing? Sheesh, you guys are all way out of touch...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/3274186/George-W-Bush-in-pictures.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01016/bush-african-danci_1016564i.jpg

Now that is funny. :yippy

[badmonkey]

yep Bush is an evil man, he took office with the intention of doing lots of bad things and 9/11 was fabricated to make it possible :shakehead

yeah badmonkey really said that :shakehead

haha yeah man, i never said he was evil. he might just be stupid :owneddance

I remember back in 2003, it was sad watching democratic lawmakers quiver in fear of disagreeing with the white house. he really could have done whatever he wanted. he could have dissolved the Fed and gone back to the gold standard if he would have tried...

but he didn't. and what he chose to do instead was at best, marginal.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

You have very nicely summarized everything wrong with our government and how...when allowed to run amok, it can be a disaster.

Accountability to voters: You suggest that politicians are accountable not to voters but to campaign contributors. True - couldn't agree more. Bush's supporters were largely among the mil-industrial sector so its no wonder that he launched a ghost-hunt in Iraq and continued a failed policy despite widespread unpopularity.

Motivation of the elderly and financially empowered: Again, true...which is why a "politics of fear" campaign was so successful in his reelection and why the sheeple refused to do anything despite their concerns of how things were being run.

Now that we all know this and understand it, perhaps its time to take back our government?
They're not just "allowed" to run amok. Don't you all get it? They don't ask anybody's permission. It's the reality. I believe the democracy did exist 100 years or so ago. It's not anymore. And there's nothing you can do about it. The System would not leave citizens a legal option to bring it down otherwise it wouldn't be much of a "system", would it? Everything is carefully calculated. And in the rare case they do need some additional support some social group can be easily bought. It needs to get really really bad for things to change. Bread lines and third-world poverty kind of bad. Do you want it to happen?

[adospeed]

Dude you guy s HAVE TO SEE THIS:
http://www.socalmoto.org/forum/showthread.php?t=915

[SatansSquirrel]

They're not just "allowed" to run amok. Don't you all get it? They don't ask anybody's permission. It's the reality. I believe the democracy did exist 100 years or so ago. It's not anymore. And there's nothing you can do about it. The System would not leave citizens a legal option to bring it down otherwise it wouldn't be much of a "system", would it? Everything is carefully calculated. And in the rare case they do need some additional support some social group can be easily bought. It needs to get really really bad for things to change. Bread lines and third-world poverty kind of bad. Do you want it to happen?

Something my Dad emailed me recently (maybe repost?) He's ex-mil, a dyed on the wool Repub for most of his life. His opinion has recently changed as he's seen the world he grew up in transform and has seen the dreams of hard-working sons and daughters hampered by an ever-bloating government.

-----------------------------------------

545 PEOPLE
By Charlie Reese

[Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper]

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on
Appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court Justices -- 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

They vote their own pay raises for themselves because they want it that way.

There are no unsolvable government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like 'the economy', 'inflation', or 'politics' that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

What you do with this article now that you have read it is up to you, though you appear to have several choices:

1. You can send this to everyone in your address book, and hope 'they'
do something about it.

2. You can agree to vote against everyone that is currently in office,
knowing that the process will take several years.

3. You can decide to 'run for office' yourself and agree to do the job
properly.

4. Lastly, you can sit back and do nothing, or re-elect the current bunch.

YOU DECIDE.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

Next four years of Obama will bore me. I have no interest in anthing he's offered up. A fellow board member directed me to an article by Charles Krauthammer.

In a nutshell, Obama will have the mandate, the congress, and the money to do what he wants.

But I have a feeling, that like most things government touches (regardless of party), the cost to attempt it will be staggering, and an unmitigated disaster.
I'm with you, Ado. You pay taxes and they disappear into some black hole: you never see any of that money back. Yeah, I know I'm such an ungrateful SOB as our country has become so much safer and we "haven't been nailed" after the war on terrorism started. Anywayz...

You pay your taxes which you'd pay to any other governemnt. Being (income-wise) in the unimportant part of electorate, you're still not getting a penny of it back. So does it matter how the king spends his gold? Yeah, theoretically if all computer programming moves to the third world, I'd be happy to pick up a shovel and participate in the glorious public infrastructure rebuild projects. After all nothing beats working outside breathing fresh air all day, like that guy said in Office Space. :lmfao

[adospeed]

Something my Dad emailed me recently (maybe repost?) He's ex-mil, a dyed on the wool Repub for most of his life. His opinion has recently changed as he's seen the world he grew up in transform and has seen the dreams of hard-working sons and daughters hampered by an ever-bloating government.

-----------------------------------------

545 PEOPLE
By Charlie Reese

[Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper]

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on
Appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court Justices -- 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

They vote their own pay raises for themselves because they want it that way.

There are no unsolvable government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like 'the economy', 'inflation', or 'politics' that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

What you do with this article now that you have read it is up to you, though you appear to have several choices:

1. You can send this to everyone in your address book, and hope 'they'
do something about it.

2. You can agree to vote against everyone that is currently in office,
knowing that the process will take several years.

3. You can decide to 'run for office' yourself and agree to do the job
properly.

4. Lastly, you can sit back and do nothing, or re-elect the current bunch.

YOU DECIDE.

Seriously, wouldnt it be cool if you could just toss them all out at once? I would be down for that.

[adospeed]

So anyhow....I'll end the day with this:

It rocks to be here at SM (thanks to those who started it) and spew out all these ideas. And though I don't agree with everyone, I do find it AWESOME that you all stick it right back to me, as you should (Homeslice, SatanSquirrel, Earl, etc, etc).
I LOVE THAT about this group!

Like brother and sisters, I think it can draws to tighter group. LOL

I'm gonna jet out. PEACE.

[420]

Something my Dad emailed me recently (maybe repost?) He's ex-mil, a dyed on the wool Repub for most of his life. His opinion has recently changed as he's seen the world he grew up in transform and has seen the dreams of hard-working sons and daughters hampered by an ever-bloating government.

-----------------------------------------

545 PEOPLE
By Charlie Reese

[Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper]

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on
Appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court Justices -- 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

They vote their own pay raises for themselves because they want it that way.

There are no unsolvable government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like 'the economy', 'inflation', or 'politics' that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Charlie Reese is a former columnist of the Orlando Sentinel Newspaper.

What you do with this article now that you have read it is up to you, though you appear to have several choices:

1. You can send this to everyone in your address book, and hope 'they'
do something about it.

2. You can agree to vote against everyone that is currently in office,
knowing that the process will take several years.

3. You can decide to 'run for office' yourself and agree to do the job
properly.

4. Lastly, you can sit back and do nothing, or re-elect the current bunch.

YOU DECIDE.

I posted that on SCS before the Election and it still makes sense to me.....

Though we are not yet Russia, where peacefully protesting the Kremlin may soon be a treasonous crime, we are well on our way with the many revocations of privacy enacted recently.

I think the power of the vote needs to be used and for people to quit voting for the lesser of 2 evils just because "they don't want to throw their vote away". If everyone actually took some time to pay attention to local and national politics and then voted the way they believe we may actually have meaningful change!!

[Da Baddest Mofo]

Seriously, wouldnt it be cool if you could just toss them all out at once? I would be down for that.
You better not post in the Firearms Thread. Seriously.

It's a different world, more complex. We need elected politicians. But the system can be improved for sure. Or better said repaired.
Those things are not even hush-hush or subtle. The whole campaigning and lobbying is legalized bribery, nothing else.

[MishMash]

Dude you guy s HAVE TO SEE THIS:
http://www.socalmoto.org/forum/showthread.php?t=915

All I can say is :idunno who cares. You are always going to offend someone, no matter what you do.

[adospeed]

All I can say is :idunno who cares. You are always going to offend someone, no matter what you do.

Yeah, true.....but I NEVER would have seen that coming.

[420]

OT: How Bush will be viewed historically will depend alot on how the things he started turn out. Many which are, unfortunately for him, out of his control.

The great benefit of having a 2 party system is that changes, once enacted, will have a force continually monitoring the change and keeping it on the long term path. It allows a large group to formulate a long term policy and see it through more easily than a multi-party system and without the power mongering of a dictatorial regime. We have seen this in the last 30 years starting with Reagen, but somewhere we fell off the guidance boat and we are about to change course. Should be interesting.

If the cards fall where this Foreign policy game benefits us more than the cost, then he may be looked upon with benevolence.

[ThrottleAbuse]

I think as time goes on people will realize W. did alot better job than what people think right now. And that is subject to the media brutal onslaught against the guy. I too am disgusted by the lack of respect that is given to W.

I find it amazing how W. went from the highest approval rating ever IIRC to the lowest approval rating ever all for the same reason which is the war. First everyone loves the guy for doing what needed to be done and what most wanted to hating him for the same reason. There was an article in the WSJ about the Dark Knight saying how it parallels W. It was a little sensationalist, but made some sense. Everyone love him for fighting crime, but then when the fight gets tough and others are getting hurt then its time for a gut check and most rather stop the fight then put it on the line. Then also Batman has to do make the decision to do some things that aren't so nice. Not because he wants to, but because its what is needed to get the job done. So when you look at the war, the troops being killed, and taking away some rights/hurting some people that may or may not need to be hurt, etc it makes a little sense.

Many people say don't fight the war or stop fighting the war. Well thats great and all, but its we either fight them on their turf with soldiers being killed or they come here and kill people at random. Soldiers sign up knowing they may go to war and fight and kill or be killed. The people that went to work at the WTC on 911 didn't think that someone come and kill them. I believe if we weren't keeping them busy with troops on the ground there they would be here doing more 911 type stuff.

On to the economy. I have said this before, but I think its worth repeating. So who here that owns a home can say it is worth less now than it was in 2000? I know we are in a tough spot now, but it seems no one will pass any blame on to congress that has been controlled by the Dems since 2006. They were warned about tightening up lending restrictions that slick Willie loosened up right before W. took office. Then there is the growth everyone talks about during slick Willie's terms. Everyone fails to mention the Republican controlled congress from 1994 on.

[4BillionDollarMan]

gotta agree with TA above ... history has a funny way of making sense in the long run. During the 80s everyone ridiculed RR ... not any more so most of us will end up thanking Dubya in this lifetime

[Da Baddest Mofo]

I remember early eighties and EXACTLY the same reasoning Soviet propaganda used on Afghan war: tough job that needs to be done.

I have a little problem with statements about "getting the job done". First we don't know if the "job" needs to get done, and second what's needed to get it done or if it can be done cheaper (which of course means less profitable for the those "doing the job"). The history... and I mean the real history, not 10, but 100 years from now... So a hundred years from now historians would look at the "war in terrorism" as yet another profitable campaign for the military-industrial complex.

As far as judging economy by the real estate prices: sure, if you live in debt. How can I benefit from the equity in my house if I live in it and don't intend to move anywhere else. use it to invest in the stock market? Screw the stocks. I'd just go to Vegas as for the majority of the general population outside of the financial elite "investing" and gambling are essentially the same activities. So if I'm not into gambling or other "risk taking" what is that equity to me?

From my very personal and very biased view the economy is better judged by employment and wages. Both steadily declined regardless of the housing boom. What else you expect when millions of white-collar jobs are shipping to the third world. After millions of blue collar jobs already being there. We're seeing the effects of that policy now. I don't know if people realize the fundamental change that's happened during the last 8 years. The whole American lifestyle is crashing down. College education doesn't guarantee you well-being anymore. It's useless if someone who barely (but nevertheless) speaks English can work for 10 times less. And it didn't start with the recent stock market crash, it didn't start a year ago when they declared the official start of the recession, and it didn't start with the collapse of the housing bubble. It started with the "jobless recovery" of 2002. Of course I'm biased as people in my field are making 25% less than they made in early nineties: that's in absolute numbers, NOT adjusted for inflation. Then it'd probably be half. Thank you, George W. for slashing my income in half.

[420]

biased is a good word... glad he used it.... and fortunately few associate biased with correct.

[badmonkey]

I think as time goes on people will realize W. did alot better job than what people think right now. And that is subject to the media brutal onslaught against the guy. I too am disgusted by the lack of respect that is given to W.

I find it amazing how W. went from the highest approval rating ever IIRC to the lowest approval rating ever all for the same reason which is the war. First everyone loves the guy for doing what needed to be done and what most wanted to hating him for the same reason. There was an article in the WSJ about the Dark Knight saying how it parallels W. It was a little sensationalist, but made some sense. Everyone love him for fighting crime, but then when the fight gets tough and others are getting hurt then its time for a gut check and most rather stop the fight then put it on the line. Then also Batman has to do make the decision to do some things that aren't so nice. Not because he wants to, but because its what is needed to get the job done. So when you look at the war, the troops being killed, and taking away some rights/hurting some people that may or may not need to be hurt, etc it makes a little sense.

Many people say don't fight the war or stop fighting the war. Well thats great and all, but its we either fight them on their turf with soldiers being killed or they come here and kill people at random. Soldiers sign up knowing they may go to war and fight and kill or be killed. The people that went to work at the WTC on 911 didn't think that someone come and kill them. I believe if we weren't keeping them busy with troops on the ground there they would be here doing more 911 type stuff.

On to the economy. I have said this before, but I think its worth repeating. So who here that owns a home can say it is worth less now than it was in 2000? I know we are in a tough spot now, but it seems no one will pass any blame on to congress that has been controlled by the Dems since 2006. They were warned about tightening up lending restrictions that slick Willie loosened up right before W. took office. Then there is the growth everyone talks about during slick Willie's terms. Everyone fails to mention the Republican controlled congress from 1994 on.

Which begs some of the questions that Alex asked above me.

What was "The Job"? I still don't know.

And what saddam hussein has to do with Al Qaeda, I will also never know. So "fightin em over there" instead of "fightin em here" may apply today--but remember where guys like OBL cut their teeth: as muhjahadeen in Afghanistan, fighting the soviets. Guess where tomorrow's OBL's are cutting their teeth? Fighting in Iraq.

[Chromodome]

Something my Dad emailed me recently (maybe repost?)
-----------------------------------------

545 PEOPLE
By Charlie Reese


I posted that on SCS before the Election and it still makes sense to me.....


I remember reading it when 420 posted it prior to the election. Not sure if either of you were curious to look at the original source, but the article was written back during the Reagan administration. The rewrite circulating now just removed references to Tip O'Neill (speaker of the house at that time) and swapped Iraq for Lebanon. Sadly not much else has changed but the president and the population!

http://www.apfn.org/APFN/545.jpg

gotta agree with TA above ... history has a funny way of making sense in the long run. During the 80s everyone ridiculed RR ... not any more so most of us will end up thanking Dubya in this lifetime

Judging by the article above, you may be right!

[swazimoto]

Guess where tomorrow's OBL's are cutting their teeth? Fighting in Iraq.


so we should leave and wait for them to come here? or stay there and kill them?

[SatansSquirrel]

so we should leave and wait for them to come here? or stay there and kill them?

I am pretty certain that stirring a hornets nest, occupying a foreign country, and engaging in battle in Iraq will only strengthen the bias of current and future generations of terrorists against us. Think of the security measures that could have been put in place domestically had we spent that money on "actually" making the US a safer place.

I also contend that the best and most cost-effective means of preventing future terrorist attacks is to attack the very core of the problem - its ideology. We could be spending far less by subverting the culture of hatred that prompted 9/11. Drop Barbie dolls, Ipods, and TV's with Baywatch on Iraq, for Allah's sake. If we really wanted to share the "benefits" of our "democracy" then why not make them fat and lazy and bent on consumerism like we are?

[swazimoto]

I also contend that the best and most cost-effective means of preventing future terrorist attacks is to attack the very core of the problem - its ideology. We could be spending far less by subverting the culture of hatred that prompted 9/11. Drop Barbie dolls, Ipods, and TV's with Baywatch on Iraq, for Allah's sake. If we really wanted to share the "benefits" of our "democracy" then why not make them fat and lazy and bent on consumerism like we are?

I hope your joking because I'm laughing pretty hard right now

[Homeslice]

so we should leave and wait for them to come here? or stay there and kill them?

Kill who? The people who hit us on 9/11 didn't come from Iraq.

9/11 was used as an excuse to do something the neo-cons always wanted to do. It's that simple. In fact right after 9/11 they had a list of 5-6 other countries they were thinking of invading, not just Iraq.

[swazimoto]

Kill who?


The people he mentioned, the future OBL's that are there now. Whether it was a mistake to go there or not those guys are there now, I simply asked what was the preferred method of dealing with them now that they are there.

[Priapism]

so we should leave and wait for them to come here? or stay there and kill them?

Not making them in the first place would have been a better option.

[swazimoto]

Not making them in the first place would have been a better option.

fine, so now what?

[Czolgosz]

not making them in the first place would have been a better option.

qft.10

[Twisty McBitch]

In your opinion
How will you talk about him

Greatest of all time or worst ??

and Why ??


I will speak of him as a blithering idiot because he is

[Czolgosz]

The more we intervene, and screw w/ the rest of the world, the more we'll reap.

Domestically this government is into everything. Don't think because this is international politics the U.S. power whores suddenly draw the line for control.

Bush will be remembered for the war, by most. For many, the increase in government and this economic valley.

Unfortunately the voting patterns we've seen for decades do not appear deterred, today. So expect more of the same for the future.

[420]

I will speak of him as a blithering idiot because he is

Do you know him?

[Priapism]

fine, so now what?

We're talking about a legacy of achievement here, so I responded as such.

The issue in Iraq now is weighing the cost-benefit analysis of staying and paying to manage the chaos ourselves (since we're not getting the oil revenues we were promised) vs. leaving and risking the next OBL getting sucked up into power by the power vacuum we leave. The current strategy can only be described as "working" relative to the mistakes of the past, which were numerous and enormous. Stop hitting yourself in the head and it'll feel good, that doesn't mean it was good for you, it just means it hurts less.

[Czolgosz]

Not making them in the first place would have been a better option.

fine, so now what?

It's time to back off. Time to reread the Constitution and understand it's purpose, not the wording, but the purpose. Time to reverse so much of the failure that America is becoming (internationally and domestically).

[SatansSquirrel]

I hope your joking because I'm laughing pretty hard right now

Nope - Cowboy politics like we are engaged in don't work. And its damn expensive. Everybody who endorses the shortsighted "Kill em all, let God (<lol) sort em out" methodology has failed in Human Influence 101, IMHO. I expect something smarter.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

The hatred of America and Americans is not ideological. That's again something for the general population to understand: there is no right or wrong, winning or losing ideology. There's no ideology at all. Though always brainwashed by their leaders very rarely in human history people fought for some pure non-material beliefs. And even then it's always been another, economic agenda of taking advantage of the war losers: exploitation/slavery being the most common.

Everything is material. In this particular case it's the tremendous wealth disparity between the West and the third world. I don't know the answer and I'm certainly against opening the borders or sharing our wealth with the rest of the world. But something we need to be crystal clear about: our "advanced" lifestyle is built on shameless exploitation of the third world, and guess what, they're not stupid. They don't like it.

IMO the risk can be mitigated on the budget without any wars which is a totally different discussion, but the fundamental problem will exist for at least another hundred years. I hope the Western Civilization will exist this long and finally solves the problem. You know what happened to previous advanced civilizations.

[Czolgosz]

The hatred of America and Americans is not ideological. That's again something for the general population to understand: there is no right or wrong, winning or losing ideology. There's no ideology at all. Though always brainwashed by their leaders very rarely in human history people fought for some pure non-material beliefs. And even then it's always been another, economic agenda of taking advantage of the war losers: exploitation/slavery being the most common.

Everything is material. In this particular case it's the tremendous wealth disparity between the West and the third world. I don't know the answer and I'm certainly against opening the borders or sharing our wealth with the rest of the world. But something we need to be crystal clear about: our "advanced" lifestyle is built on shameless exploitation of the third world, and guess what, they're not stupid. They don't like it.

IMO the risk can be mitigated on the budget without any wars which is a totally different discussion, but the fundamental problem will exist for at least another hundred years. I hope the Western Civilization will exist this long and finally solves the problem. You know what happened to previous advanced civilizations.

I believe there is some truth to what you're saying, but I believe primarily they see the overuse of the our power just as we do here at home w/ much of the local bullshit.

After all, I don't hear many complaints about those damn Swiss.

[420]

I agree with the Clogmeister. It is time to take a step back, retrench, lick our wounds and go back to what made us strong in the first place. Freedom and ingenuity.

The scarcity of resources makes this exceedingly difficult however. I think we are too short term in our national mentality. We should have already looked beyond this Oil issue.

I'll be the first to admit its pretty damn complicated when you sit down and think about it. Issues today transcend political parties or presidents. I find it humorous that people put so much hate or hope into one person.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

Swiss' turn will come. Being the largest of Western economies the US would always be target #1. The "rulers or the world" attitude of most American tourists going to low-cost countries to be treated like royalty (by local standards) doesn't help either.

[SatansSquirrel]

I believe there is some truth to what you're saying, but I believe primarily they see the overuse of the our power just as we do here at home w/ much of the local bullshit.

After all, I don't hear many complaints about those damn Swiss.

Agree.

[Czolgosz]

I agree with the Clogmeister. It is time to take a step back, retrench, lick our wounds and go back to what made us strong in the first place. Freedom and ingenuity.

The scarcity of resources makes this exceedingly difficult however. I think we are too short term in our national mentality. We should have already looked beyond this Oil issue.

I'll be the first to admit its pretty damn complicated when you sit down and think about it. Issues today transcend political parties or presidents. I find it humorous that people put so much hate or hope into one person.

Testify.

[zman]

I have always said this

How can we "America US" take care of another country
when we cant even take care of ourselves .

we have to start building this country up again
forget of all this BS and start being proud of being a American
One thing i hate so much is all these people that come over and complaint about being fare and other BS , if you dont like it LEAVE !!!!

[swazimoto]

I agree with the Clogmeister. It is time to take a step back, retrench, lick our wounds and go back to what made us strong in the first place. Freedom and ingenuity.

The scarcity of resources makes this exceedingly difficult however. I think we are too short term in our national mentality. We should have already looked beyond this Oil issue.

I'll be the first to admit its pretty damn complicated when you sit down and think about it. Issues today transcend political parties or presidents. I find it humorous that people put so much hate or hope into one person.


good post.

[swazimoto]

I have always said this

How can we "America US" take care of another country
when we cant even take care of ourselves .

we have to start building this country up again
forget of all this BS and start being proud of being a American
One thing i hate so much is all these people that come over and complaint about being fare and other BS , if you dont like it LEAVE !!!!

when the America hating liberals that won't allow oil exploration, nuclear power, or tearing up a piece of land occupied by some useless bird to build defenses go away we'll be on our way to accomplishing this.

[zman]

when the America hating liberals that won't allow oil exploration, nuclear power, or tearing up a piece of land occupied by some useless bird to build defenses go away we'll be on our way to accomplishing this.

I would start with these Fackers " ACLU "

[420]

Gonna have to disagree with you all on that stuff....

The more we trash what we have the more dependent we are gonna become on others...

Its time to learn how to live within our means and within nature or we will fail.

[SatansSquirrel]

YouTube - GEORGE CARLIN - PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYpuOAqD0l0)

[Mcgician]

I'll try attempt the smallest post possible while covering a few of the last pages of topics.

Exploitation of the third world= :bs

Swiss= pushover country only out for a buck and luckily surrounded by big fucking mountains.

Those that take their posh lifestyles and freedom of speech for granted (especially when compared to where they came from)= LEAVE!

Bush= Liberal.

Done.

[ThrottleAbuse]

I am pretty certain that stirring a hornets nest, occupying a foreign country, and engaging in battle in Iraq will only strengthen the bias of current and future generations of terrorists against us.

This may be true. If we leave now before the job is finished. When I say do the job that needs to be done I mean get rid of the current batch of wacko terrorists by fighting them on their soil. Then I believe the job needs to transform to an educational role for the future of countries like Iraq. I believe (and so do some friends with first hand knowledge) that the people in Iraq are so poorly educated and have been oppressed for so long that they don't even understand the concept of freedom. I think it will take years if not generations of educating people and letting them live to fix the problem of generation after generation of terrorists.

[Markbone]

it will take decades at the pace it is now, for a few reasons. everyone's so PC and the entire area is very sensitive that it makes it almost imposible to fight. not like the good ole days when : "here's a beach, kill everyone on it. good luck". a friend was telling me about his patrols they make near the border of another country (i think syria? but cant remember for sure). they would be fighting the insurgents , chasing them towards the border. as soon as they crossed they couldnt pursue them anymore. one time they actually waved back to them because they knew they couldnt follow them. what kind of BS tactic is that? "CAnt kill me, im in the safe zone!" there are a lot of ways we could remove the insurgents, but with the rules of engagment they way they are, and the general policies that the soldiers have to follow it is damn near impossible. that has to be the toughest job on earth right now.

[Czolgosz]

I'll try attempt the smallest post possible while covering a few of the last pages of topics.

Exploitation of the third world= :bs

Swiss= pushover country only out for a buck and luckily surrounded by big fucking mountains.

Those that take their posh lifestyles and freedom of speech for granted (especially when compared to where they came from)= LEAVE!

Bush= Liberal.

Done.



:lmfao

[Da Baddest Mofo]

When someone is being paid less (like 10 and more times) for the same job and you buy the product, I'd say it seems like exploitation. Labor-intensive low tech jobs performed for pennies - that's exploitation. Avoiding workspace safety and environmental health regulations (I'm not even talking about workplace injury and other insurance) resulting in shorter life expectancy - that's exploitation.

C'mon. It's not "the way of things" or "our hard work that made us strong". In a self-contained system completely shut for the outside world (and I lived in such country for 25 years)... sure. But the Western world hasn't been self-contained for probably a hundred years now. We do use others' willingness to work harder and for [significantly] less. And we don't offer them American salaries, do we?

I'd take it even further and say that the mere denial of entry to third-world people who want to perform the same work as Americans for the same money qualifies as exploitation. We have the presence there as managers. Why can't they have presence here as workers? No, I absolutely don't want them here, but this one-sided relationship is something to be aware about.

It's guilt on our shoulders and we can't do anything about it if we want to maintain our posh lifestyle. But we prefer to shut our eyes and feel good. BTW that's one thing I learned about Americans. They hate guilt. You go to church, confess, and it's back to normal. Even spend a couple of weeks in Peace Corps or another organization like that sleeping in a/c tents and eating nutritious Western food. And wondering: why, oh, why the world is so unfair and people die like flies in those countries. Cause we want it to be this way. There's a concept of born sinners in many religions (e.g. Russian Orthodox Church). Western people are entitled from birth to higher living standards, but it also means they're born sinners, so they suffer from their sins from time to time. Like I said, it can be mitigated, but not eliminated int he next 200 years.

[badmonkey]

I would start with these Fackers " ACLU "

The ACLU has nothing to do with the stuff swazi posted, Rudy! :owneddance

Also, the ACLU kicks ass man. They've got some despicable clients (NAMBLA, KKK, etc) but they put their money where their mouth is when it comes to protecting the constitution and this country would not be a better place without them.

And insofar as ignoring the environmental impact of projects and "caring about some useless bird"--these sound like famous last words. Our ecosystems are fragile and one can never know the full extent of the environmental impact of any project--but to skip studying or investigating the potential costs of such a project is irresponsible and wrong.

yeah it's a useless bird to you--but maybe it's what's been keeping pest populations in control. It's all fun and games until there's an epidemic that breaks out because of resurgent rat populations, or entire fields of crops are fucked up by some beetles that should've been eaten by your useless bird.

[badmonkey]

it will take decades at the pace it is now, for a few reasons. everyone's so PC and the entire area is very sensitive that it makes it almost imposible to fight. not like the good ole days when : "here's a beach, kill everyone on it. good luck". a friend was telling me about his patrols they make near the border of another country (i think syria? but cant remember for sure). they would be fighting the insurgents , chasing them towards the border. as soon as they crossed they couldnt pursue them anymore. one time they actually waved back to them because they knew they couldnt follow them. what kind of BS tactic is that? "CAnt kill me, im in the safe zone!" there are a lot of ways we could remove the insurgents, but with the rules of engagment they way they are, and the general policies that the soldiers have to follow it is damn near impossible. that has to be the toughest job on earth right now.

And don't you think it requires a new approach?

I'm not opposed to the war on terror--but i am opposed to the way it's being fought. We're never gonna shoot our way to a terror free world--how do you double tap an idea?

I think we're on the right track by destroying their finances and crippling their communications, but the idea that we can drop a company off in downtown kabul and tell em to shoot people they think are terrorists is never going to work.

[ThrottleAbuse]

When someone is being paid less (like 10 and more times) for the same job and you buy the product, I'd say it seems like exploitation. Labor-intensive low tech jobs performed for pennies - that's exploitation. Avoiding workspace safety and environmental health regulations (I'm not even talking about workplace injury and other insurance) resulting in shorter life expectancy - that's exploitation.


Are you serious. Exploitation. No one is putting a gun to their head and saying work for less money or die. It their choice to work for less. Its called Capitalism. They don't make salaries the same as people in the US because if we had to pay em that much we may as well higher Americans. Not to mention the saving in taxes by hiring out of country workers. Thank the US Government for taxing this shit out of everything that moves. But alas ask around and the idiots will tell you raise taxes on Corporations as they have plenty of money. Your ideas sound to much like socialism for me. I see no where in the Constitution where it says you have the right to life, liberty, and the right to a high paying job because your smart and think you deserve it. Supply and Demand. Other countries have a large supply of cheap labor. If you don't like it I am sure Mother Russia would take you back.

it will take decades at the pace it is now, for a few reasons. everyone's so PC and the entire area is very sensitive that it makes it almost imposible to fight. not like the good ole days when : "here's a beach, kill everyone on it. good luck". a friend was telling me about his patrols they make near the border of another country (i think syria? but cant remember for sure). they would be fighting the insurgents , chasing them towards the border. as soon as they crossed they couldnt pursue them anymore. one time they actually waved back to them because they knew they couldnt follow them. what kind of BS tactic is that? "CAnt kill me, im in the safe zone!" there are a lot of ways we could remove the insurgents, but with the rules of engagment they way they are, and the general policies that the soldiers have to follow it is damn near impossible. that has to be the toughest job on earth right now.

Sounds an awful lot like Vietnam. Stupid PC shit. If Syria doesn't has a problem with it I say we hand them their ass on a platter. If you harbor the enemy you are the enemy. Forget troops. Just bomb them back to the stone age.

And don't you think it requires a new approach?

I'm not opposed to the war on terror--but i am opposed to the way it's being fought. We're never gonna shoot our way to a terror free world--how do you double tap an idea?

I think we're on the right track by destroying their finances and crippling their communications, but the idea that we can drop a company off in downtown kabul and tell em to shoot people they think are terrorists is never going to work.

We have to take care of the immediate threat. You won't change a 20 yr old terrorist mind about blowing them self up as a martyr or their parents mind that were to much of a pussy to do it them self. So IMO the double tap is the only solution for them. Then like I said allow the next generation to become enlightened and learn what freedom and tolerance means.

I agree destroy the finances and cripple the communications. The ROE are far from shoot at people you think are terrorists. Just as Markbone said the ROE is bullshit and the guys can't even chase people they are fighting across the border to another country.

[adospeed]

RE: "Thank the US Government for taxing this shit out of everything that moves."


Now that my friend......was funny.

[ThrottleAbuse]

RE: "Thank the US Government for taxing this shit out of everything that moves."


Now that my friend......was funny.

Seriously. With our business if I want to pay myself $100 take home the business needs to make like $250-300 dollars.

[Markbone]

And don't you think it requires a new approach?

I'm not opposed to the war on terror--but i am opposed to the way it's being fought. We're never gonna shoot our way to a terror free world--how do you double tap an idea?

I think we're on the right track by destroying their finances and crippling their communications, but the idea that we can drop a company off in downtown kabul and tell em to shoot people they think are terrorists is never going to work.


uh yeah it does, the old school approach. not burning women and children in the process but fack its war, collateral damage WILL occur. you cant double tap an idea, but you can make that idea seem pointless or show those that like that idea the consequences of living it. but at the same point they blow themselves up, so what can anyone do? mightas well just sit back, drop a few fuel-air bombs and shoot anything that crawls out of the wreck. then just blame the terrorists. theyre dead, we look good, we win! cept it wont work because they still use Ratholes (ala Vietnam), hide in plain sight, and are suicidal maniacs. but the ROE are WAY to strict when it comes to eliminating ANYONE. another friend of mine was an army sniper. spent WEEKS in the same spot. never moved. kept his eye on the target, then came the call: ABORT. why? we just signed some peace treaty with yet another country that harboring terrorists. i honestly dont think the US can trust anyone (govt wise) in the middle east because they either get capped, swap sides, or are greedy back stabbers. i say we find terrorists, we kill them no matter what your GPS location is. the last thing we need is to pull out (lol) early. that would not only doom the US it would doom most of the middle east. as soon as we give up the terrorists 'win' (again, kinda like vietnam...) after we leave. i know i dsont have the perfect answers, and there probably is no single perfect answer, but something does need to happen, and all you anti-war hippies can suck my fat one if you think otherwise. look at Britian pre and post WWI (in the middle east), look at Russia in Afghanistan, look at US in Vietnam. all botched because they pulled out early and the govt's that were in place at the time collapsed.


so yeah, fuck terrorists.

[Priapism]

America hating liberals

I am so sick of hearing this. It's bullshit shit-stirring to piss people off, nothing more, and you know it.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

Are you serious. Exploitation. No one is putting a gun to their head and saying work for less money or die. It their choice to work for less. Its called Capitalism. They don't make salaries the same as people in the US because if we had to pay em that much we may as well higher Americans. Not to mention the saving in taxes by hiring out of country workers. Thank the US Government for taxing this shit out of everything that moves. But alas ask around and the idiots will tell you raise taxes on Corporations as they have plenty of money. Your ideas sound to much like socialism for me. I see no where in the Constitution where it says you have the right to life, liberty, and the right to a high paying job because your smart and think you deserve it. Supply and Demand. Other countries have a large supply of cheap labor. If you don't like it I am sure Mother Russia would take you back.
I wish you got a taste of real socialism, like I did, TA. :(

I don't have any "ideas". Just explaining things. It's interesting how people always try to find the solution. There's no solution for the economic disparity between the "civilized" countries and the third world. The West is rich because the third world is poor. Call it the freedom of choice and capitalism. Are you that ignorant? It is indeed work for pennies or die in those countries. There's no choice. There's no safety net in the form of social services. And people die. That said I don't give a damn about them just like you, but I'm aware of the consequences. It's work or die. Now, the second also has two choices: die from malnutrition or die fighting. So the latter is "consequences" for us.

BTW there's nothing about welfare in the American Constitution. Nothing about government medical insurance for poor pregnant women (I know several who received it). How would you comment on that? And I can only laugh at that "right to a high paying job because your smart and think you deserve it". Alright, you tried to insult me, so I'll pay you back. :) Here's my insult: just another foreigner's observation. This country has a very rich tradition of slavery and racial discrimination. Of course you won't find it in the Constitution either. That discrimination existed up until fifties and it's certainly not completely eliminated even today. So this is how outsiders view the American lifestyle. All it mattered was to be born white. Then with the exception of the Civil War, the Great Depression, and other cataclysmic events the well-being of a "white man" was pretty much guaranteed. And by "well-being" I mean rather "managerial" clean white-collar job. C'mon, you go to college, get a job, continue your "career" with 3% annual raises, and you're automatically able to afford common luxuries like a car and a house. It was like that up until the recent "globalization". People didn't have to worry about dirty low paying jobs.

I'm not saying white vs. black or any other race, but that expectation of a better life exists at many levels. It's interesting reading bike theft posts: "Why don't those lazy bastards get a job". And people say the same about the "terrorists". They're poor cause they're lazy, right? And we are rich thanks to our hard work. Geopolitical factors like natural resources, location, profiting from wars fought on foreign soils, etc. have nothing to do with it, just the ingenuity and hard work... IMO the Western Civilization cannot live w/o discrimination and slavery in one or another form. So as the racism subsided we needed to find some inferior race to look down to.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

^^^ Just observations... Of course I came to this country to live "like a white man": a common Russian and European expression describing American lifestyle. Am I "white" enough to deserve it?

There's a price to pay for the "civilized" lifestyle, all I wanted to say.

[Mcgician]

:movie

[swazimoto]

I am so sick of hearing this. It's bullshit shit-stirring to piss people off, nothing more, and you know it.

I disagree, obviously, that's why I wrote it. It's my interpretation of what I see, just like you've interpreted what I wrote.

[Priapism]

I disagree, obviously, that's why I wrote it. It's my interpretation of what I see, just like you've interpreted what I wrote.

I know more than a few liberals that would absolutely destroy you for saying such a thing about them. It's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact that is simply not true and has been proven countless times before.

[stitches]

as someone said ''George was born on third base but thinks he hit a triple''

[swazimoto]

I know more than a few liberals that would absolutely destroy you for saying such a thing about them. It's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact that is simply not true and has been proven countless times before.

I'm not calling all liberals America haters... sorry for the confusion

[Czolgosz]

^^^ Just observations... Of course I came to this country to live "like a white man": a common Russian and European expression describing American lifestyle. Am I "white" enough to deserve it?

There's a price to pay for the "civilized" lifestyle, all I wanted to say.

I for one appreciate "outside" observations, they often give perspective the natives hadn't considered. And much like talk radio hosts there are always truths in each perspective from every person.

It's important to note that the U.S. Constitution is designed to give *every individual* equal *rights* within our system of *government*.

That is to say the government *must* recognize a person as a person, not a demographic and must not recognize one over the other in any facet of its governance (of course America is FAIL on this also-separate thread).

You do not have to be white enough to succeed in America, only brave enough to exercise your Constitutionally given rights in spite of the collective stupidity.

[ThrottleAbuse]

I wish you got a taste of real socialism, like I did, TA. :(

I don't have any "ideas". Just explaining things. It's interesting how people always try to find the solution. There's no solution for the economic disparity between the "civilized" countries and the third world. The West is rich because the third world is poor. Call it the freedom of choice and capitalism. Are you that ignorant? It is indeed work for pennies or die in those countries. There's no choice. There's no safety net in the form of social services. And people die. That said I don't give a damn about them just like you, but I'm aware of the consequences. It's work or die. Now, the second also has two choices: die from malnutrition or die fighting. So the latter is "consequences" for us.

BTW there's nothing about welfare in the American Constitution. Nothing about government medical insurance for poor pregnant women (I know several who received it). How would you comment on that? And I can only laugh at that "right to a high paying job because your smart and think you deserve it". Alright, you tried to insult me, so I'll pay you back. :) Here's my insult: just another foreigner's observation. This country has a very rich tradition of slavery and racial discrimination. Of course you won't find it in the Constitution either. That discrimination existed up until fifties and it's certainly not completely eliminated even today. So this is how outsiders view the American lifestyle. All it mattered was to be born white. Then with the exception of the Civil War, the Great Depression, and other cataclysmic events the well-being of a "white man" was pretty much guaranteed. And by "well-being" I mean rather "managerial" clean white-collar job. C'mon, you go to college, get a job, continue your "career" with 3% annual raises, and you're automatically able to afford common luxuries like a car and a house. It was like that up until the recent "globalization". People didn't have to worry about dirty low paying jobs.

I'm not saying white vs. black or any other race, but that expectation of a better life exists at many levels. It's interesting reading bike theft posts: "Why don't those lazy bastards get a job". And people say the same about the "terrorists". They're poor cause they're lazy, right? And we are rich thanks to our hard work. Geopolitical factors like natural resources, location, profiting from wars fought on foreign soils, etc. have nothing to do with it, just the ingenuity and hard work... IMO the Western Civilization cannot live w/o discrimination and slavery in one or another form. So as the racism subsided we needed to find some inferior race to look down to.

Glad I missed out on Socialism. See my family moved here from Germany in the late 1800's to seek a better life.

The social services system is horseshit in this country. Its to easy to use the safety net here. I guess you missed the birth control/welfare thread. People who can't afford it should be having kids. Simple concept.

There are plenty of poor white folk around, but sure there was and is racism. I am sure it was W. fault too as he "doesn't care about black people"

If you were truly insulted by my comment I apologize. Just throwing shit out there to see the response. It does seem from your posts though that you feel entitled to having a high paying job in your industry and are bitter because those jobs are being shipped elsewhere.

Its not our fault we industrialized sooner than other countries and developed a Democracy and are a Capitalistic society. Others choose a different path. Its not our fault Communism was a bust and there are a billion Chinese willing to work for next to nothing. Shit we have tried forever to get these countries to adopt our systems. Fought wars over it.

Anyway yay W. I do have to say though him leaking to the UAW that he would float them till Obama got the reigns is crap. Should have stuck em with the deal Sen. Corker proposed.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

I hear you, TA. I wasn't insulted. Neither I hope I insulted you. Yes, statistically there's unfortunately plenty of poor white, black, brown, yellow, or any other people. I should clarify. I meant the "middle class", used to be predominantly white. Basically once you're in, you were guaranteed comfortable life for all of your future generations. All you need to do is obey the rules of the game: go to college, start "career", etc. Not so much anymore. The "middle class" as we know it will be extinct in our generation.

You nailed it: Americans evolved (industrialized and democratized) earlier. But look at it through the eyes of those "terrorists". Let's say, you live on some farm. And the farm is doing well. But next to you lives some poor family who don't have a farm. You've employed them for generations. Now in the eyes of your grandfather who started this farm from nothing it's all just. But two generations further it's a little different: you are given expensive toys by your parents and the neighbors' children aren't. Obviously they don't think it's fair cause both your and that neighbor boy were born equal. yes, you're legally entitled, but you've contributed nothing to your grandfather's fortune.

It gets more interesting if you think about equal opportunity. Nothing is preventing your neighbors from establishing their own farm, right? Not exactly. Many of us know who the streets in South OC are named after. So how much Moultons, Niguels, and Irvines paid for their land? Nothing. It was granted to them. And this is how your grandfather acquired it as well. Your poor neighbors can't do it now and your family wants to keep it this way. You don't need another competitor, you need reasonably priced labor, and customers.

Life is unfair. The nature is unfair. Certain species have their window of opportunity to become dominant in the region (or planet), but as it's a closed system, they do it at the expense of other species. And then those dominant species can fall victim of obesity or other disease. Or the competing species can force their own window of opportunity. Remember how the Roman empire fell? So the threat is real though grossly exaggerated.

[bolo]

Only time will tell, but with the history of that region of the world it doesn't look promising for the W.

[Markbone]

so the strong survive while the weak die out. natural selection baby, keep up or die.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

so the strong survive while the weak die out. natural selection baby, keep up or die.
The strong can become fat and weak, while the weak evolve to overcome their weakness.

Sorry for my rants. I was thinking about this thread while taking a dump, and come up with another story. :lol

Let's say your friend has a periodic problem with nails on his porch. And he's totally clueless about nails or any other stuff. You can go to Home Depot and buy the cheapest hammer or you can do the job with a 12 Megapixel DSLR camera. It can be used as a hammer, alright. And your uncle is in the camera business. And sales have been poor lately. Now if you suggest your friend to hit a nail with a $1K camera, he'd immediately tell you to go fuck yourself, right?

Then you have an epiphany. You know there are some sloppy contractors who are working on your friend's house from time to time and they tend to leave nails protruding from the floor hence his problem with those damn nails. No, you don't have to sabotage it yourself, you just happen to be the safety inspector who examines those guys' work. So here's your opportunity. You wait and indeed soon enough they leave a very promising nail.

Your friend trips on it, falls, and breaks his leg (or two). Then you visit him in the hospital. No you wouldn't immediately start with the business. First you'd tell him how sorry you are, how much you care, and how you're outraged about his injury. Your friend is somewhat dumb and naive, so you know it'd set the stage for your proposal: buying that expensive camera. You convince him tripping on nails and breaking bones is even more expensive not to mention how painful. It's still not easy for him. "Hey, you don't need to pay cash, - you say - Use your plastic and pay it off years later".

[Markbone]

id just go find a rock for free :idunno

i see the point you are trying to make, and i totally agree with this:
The strong can become fat and weak, while the weak evolve to overcome their weakness

this is why the strongest, smartest will survive. they take note of the fattening and lay off it. the ones that realize this will survive, those that dont are again weak and will die out.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

What about the uncle in the camera business? Who you feel obligated to help because he helped you with college costs, and that college ensured your successful career.

[Markbone]

What about the uncle in the camera business? Who you feel obligated to help because he helped you with college costs, and that college ensured your successful career.


i'd say thanks for the help, if i can help you sell camera's to people who can afford them i'llhook it up. but since its not my business, id let him work it. if he was smart he would find someone that could work for cheaper and more effieciently. that and maybe help him find unecesary costs etc. just because he helped me throgh college doesnt mean im going to f up a relationship with a friend that cant afford a camera.

[Da Baddest Mofo]

OK, it's not just your moral obligation. You get a 25% kickback and your brother co-owns that business.

[Earl]

His legacy will be as "Herbert Hoover the 2nd."

[Desmofemme]

Mcgician, how in the world can you say the exploitation of the 'third world'/developing nations is 'bs?' Please back that statement up with some fact. I'm calling you out... THAT is bs. Our manipulation of developing countries' economic and social structures, natural resources, and our systematic population control has been well-documented and is FACT. But you seem insistent upon re-drawing the earth as flat, time and time again.

Priapism- THANK YOU! I'm so tired of hearing the conflation of 'anti-war' with 'anti-american...' or hearing people say that Liberals hate their country, or because we want some responsibility on the part of government for more of their people and more of their land and what has been there for thousands of years, we must be unpatriotic. What a crock of shit. I plan to live my life trying to make this country BETTER, in SERVICE just as others live in service in the military or working on community projects or developing relations with foreign nations. This country allows you the prospects to aid in its development and (like SS pointed out) to NOT go along with things you disagree with. I believe participation in society is integral to keeping the value of the freedoms we cherish, and just because some of us fight in different ways to defend what we believe, doesn't make us America-haters, or any less patriotic. That line of thinking is uninformed and illegitimate... I'd like to see any sources (besides Fox) that can back up the statement 'liberals are un-American.' And yes, I mean 'liberals' across the board... welfare liberals, anti-war liberals, classical liberals (libertarians), etc. Because if you say something so broad, you best be able to define your terms and back it up.

[Mcgician]

Mcgician, how in the world can you say the exploitation of the 'third world'/developing nations is 'bs?' Please back that statement up with some fact. I'm calling you out... THAT is bs. Our manipulation of developing countries' economic and social structures, natural resources, and our systematic population control has been well-documented and is FACT.

Still not ready to get along huh? You could easily have challenged my statement without referring to me by name, but you just couldn't help yourself could you? I'm done researching topics and finding facts that you won't choose to look at. This is a subjective argument anyway. Proving it is impossible. Have fun with your rant.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

[Priapism]

Don't worry, I still love you :kiss :leghump

[Desmofemme]

Still not ready to get along huh? You could easily have challenged my statement without referring to me by name, but you just couldn't help yourself could you? I'm done researching topics and finding facts that you won't choose to look at. This is a subjective argument anyway. Proving it is impossible. Have fun with your rant.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

??? wth? this is purely topic-related... (are we not conversing about this in pm's? are other people not responding to each other by name, or quoting each other? since when is this a problem and since when do you respond to it defensively?) this has nothing to do with 'getting along.' i'm challenging your statement because it didn't make sense and has no basis in reality. it had nothing to do with how i feel about you personally. it's a topical thread, try to keep that in mind.

[ThrottleAbuse]

Problem is Desmo that some people believe in Socialism and all in the world should have equal and others believe in Capitalism and God for bid Darwin's Theory.

BTW if you eliminate FOX news as a source you need to eliminate all the liberal media sources. Then there would be exactly ZERO sources because FOX News is the only media outlet that is not extremely liberal biased.

[Earl]

.....and God for bid Darwin's Theory.

BTW if you eliminate FOX news as a source you need to eliminate all the liberal media sources. Then there would be exactly ZERO sources because FOX News is the only media outlet that is not extremely liberal biased.

Wow, so you believe in creationism; earth and sky were all created in 7 days? You claim to be an engineer of sorts, and after all of that schooling, you disregard carbon 14 dating, fossil evidence of our evolution, the approximate age of the universe, age of fossil fuels, etc...?

Faux News is a joke, it was started to cater to people like you. So, the FFRDCs that are out there, all of the Federal agencies with thousands of scientists & engineers, etc are NOT credible sources of information? Again, WOW!

[adospeed]

Live and let live right Earl?

[Nocontrol]

Wow, so you believe in creationism; earth and sky were all created in 7 days? ...

Well duh! Didn't you watch the documentary "Jesus Camp", it is clearly the only way that makes sense! :laughing2

Pray safe,
~K

[Earl]

Well duh! Didn't you watch the documentary "Jesus Camp", it is clearly the only way that makes sense! :laughing2

Pray safe,
~K

I missed that!

Jesus Camp? That's too much.......